GTV 2.0 V6 TB Q2 competizione ... maybe ...

[Filip 124]

The tonight post will be for engine oil.

My engine is not new ('96). For these years and kilometers the measurement and gaps in it have changed. I have been using Selenia Racing 10W-60 engine oil. That is recommended for my car for sportier use by Alfa Romeo hmm. The first index is viscosity at low temperatures. And second index is viscosity at 100°C. Oil with "big gap between indexes" are produced with additional additives and over time it's characteristics (indexes) comes closer - they loose their initial characteristics. But these main indexes are not all about one oil and two different brands 10W-40 oils don't have absolutely same characteristics.

Motul. These oils are classic for racing and performance car and can be bought at good prices (better than Selenia Racing). In Bulgaria most popular of them is Le Mans 20W-60, but decide to not go for it, because of its characteristics. I choose that

Motul 300V Competition 15W-50.

Love your long posts!

I assume the reason you went from 60 to 50 is that it fills these "gaps" better and reduces wear?

[Thanos 193]

Every time I read this topic I need a bag of chips near me .

I will copy your post about the motul 300v on the oil section if thats ok with you.

Please keep me inform about how happy you are with this type of oil.

[kunev 131]

@ Filip: Like I sad in my previous post the two indexes mean viscosity at different temperature.That classification of the oils is SAE classification and is most popular. The bigger the number the bigger viscosity and respectively thicker oil (at the corresponding temperature). So for second index (viscosity at 100°C of oil) 60 is bigger than 50 so it is thicker at 100°C. But thicker oil also mean more friction for the internal engine components when moving and also more heat. The first index (winter index - the number before 'W') is important for engine performance at cold temperature and cold start. So for relatively new car with modern engine that index have to be low (0W,5W), especially for winter driving. For very low temperatures (winter) engine want thinner oil,less friction. But these indexes are not everything (like I sad earlier). 300V series oils are different from standard oil. They use Double Ester Technology and are designed for racing. I will quote technical specification of 300V Competition:

STANDARDS: Above existing standards.

Double Ester technology : maximum oil film resistance, balanced polarity, resistance at very high

temperature.

Friction Modifier : maximum power output, decrease operating temperature.

0% shear loss : Stable oil pressure whatever using conditions.

Maximum anti-wear resistance.

Perfect engine cleanliness.

15W-50 grade is able to absorb fuel dilution in the oil and maintains high oil pressure. Engine can run at

very high temperature.

And these oils are not appropriate for many kilometers and long time in the engine.

For turbocharged petrol car 10000 km between oil changes is not acceptable. More appropriate is around 5000 km and that is for normal use of the car .

@Thanos: Thanks for the comment on that thread and for "Likes" . I'm not a oil expert or that I have made many research and analyzes about oils quality and characteristics. I just have read some things about that and made that decision for my car. There is also many oil comparison test and articles on the net so everybody is free to read about that theme and to make it's own conclusions . If you think that what I have written is good and appropriate for the other thread you are free to copy it there .

And at the end of this long post I will post something on the topic - old pictures of my car

[Jotie 1]

Great project and explanation !!

[kunev 131]

Thanks Jotie .

As I sad earlier - when installing new turbo the oil should be changed also, because it lubricate and cool turbocharged center part (the shaft which connect turbine and compressor wheel). Stock turbocharger is oil and "water" cooled (I put water in quotes because engine coolant is antifreeze mixture) and GT2860RS is also oil and "water" cooled. So engine coolant also go into turbocharger and also should be changed with new turbo install. Not all turbochargers have "water" cooling. Water cooling of turbocharger helps for more gradually heating and cooling. Sharp heating or cooling is something very stressful for every material. I thought what antifreeze to use - ordinary (green or blue color usually) or "long life" antifreeze (from orange to red color). Long life antifreezes have some flushing additives which can open many small holes in old cooling system. If you install long life antifreeze on old car first you have to flush cooling system and then you will see if there are leaks from car. And clogging of leaks can be very annoying and difficult to achieve! And in many cases you thought that cooling system is repaired but leaks appear again. I decide to use good old ordinary antifreeze and bought these bottles.

That is concentrate, which have to be mixed with water. I will use distilled water. That Bardahl Type C antifreeze is nothing special, but I choose it because I like checker flags,motorsport and racing labels and other performance sighs on the "package" . I also bought one coolant additive for improved cooling - Motul MoCool.

It may not have noticeable effect, but if have it will be nice thing . The main improvement for cooling system is installing bigger and more efficient radiator, but that maybe will be in the future.

[kunev 131]

Another major aspect to good performance car is of course the suspension. I have made a lot of research on that theme - what variants have on the market for my car, shops and prices, reviews and opinions on dampers,springs, coilovers. Like all things in life different people have its own view and therefore many different opinions. I have to filter the opinions in my view point. The main criteria is where and how will be used the car. My car is street, but not everyday car. It will be driven mainly on highway, extra urban, winding roads and sometimes on the track. So it will have to be good weekend fun and capable performance car (at that point you will say that the stock GTVs are good for all that , but I want upper level of performance). I wanted good handling and stability (not only on super smooth track), but also some "sort of comfort" (as far as can be expected from performance car) when driving normally. First I wanted to buy some very good coilovers with many options for adjustment - Intrax RS or HDA coilovers (Autodelta coilovers are rebranded Intrax) or KW Variant 2 (Novitec coilovers are rebranded KW from what I have read) and to find the right settings for the road and track. But these are expensive. Then I thought about FK Silverline X coilovers. It uses Koni dampers and stainless steel body. I have read good opinions on this model and the price is affordable. I have some suspicion for using of coilovers on the road and also read some not good opinions and advice for that. But after all the car is weekend car and not very comfortable in standard form also so I can live with it and of coarse I plan to drive the car on track sometimes (very rarely). And then I have another period when I wanted sport dampers and springs , which is probably the optimal combination for street car and at better price than coilovers (which is also important). Another aspect is that our model is low from the factory (especially oil pan) and I don't wanted much lowering, maximum -30 mm on normal roads (and even that is plenty for bad roads in Bulgaria). From what I have read my wishes end up to one specific combination - Bilstein B6 Sport dampers with Eibach Pro-Kit springs. B6 are designed for use with normal springs or lowering springs to -30 mm and Eibach Pro-Kit springs have lowering of -20 mm for our car (I have read somewhere -30 mm), so just perfect lowering to me. Bilstein B6 are monotube dampers, which have very fast "reaction" and durability (I hope so). But like most of you (which have search for sport dampers) know front Bilstein B6 dampers are not available anymore for V6 models which is not new news and is very sad. The dampers on V6 TB and early 3.0 12V are a little bit different from dampers on 3.0/3.2 24V. They are basically the same dampers, but on 3.0/3.2 24V sway bar drop link is connected to the body on the shock (which have plate for that) and on V6 TB it is connected to the wishbone. So here come one options for TB drivers for which I don't thought - using of 3.0/3.2 dampers on TB and have read in this forum. Lets mention here that there is still Koni dampers for 3.0/3.2 24V. Like I write already I have read many reviews and opinions, but one of them really like how is written and how many variants are listed - it is for forum for one "cousin" of our model: Fiat Coupe Forum suspension comparison.

I wanted full package front and rear Bilstein B6 dampers and if I could not find front B6 I will go for FK Silverline X. I found many online shops which have front B6 for TB in their catalog with price, but after contact with them they answer me that they have check and that article is available anymore (nothing new for me, only for them). I hoped to find some place where there is front B6 for TB in stock, but with now success and I give up for that plan. But one day accidentally I came across one thread in alfaowner forum in GTV/Spider section from one user from Romania, which have bought used Bilstein B6 dampers and Eibach springs (front and rear) from GTV TB for his TS Spider. But he realized that they not fit and sell them. I don't want to buy second hand suspension parts, but after impossibility to have full package new I decide to try with that. That user is Alex Stroe "ALXege" which is also on this forum (but then I don't know for that forum). I contact to them and we make a deal - I send him the money and he send to me the package.

And he also send me one gift

Wonderful calendar of Romanian Alfa Romeo club (for year 2012, but that was in the middle of last year), which is designed and made by him and also photos are by him I think . Very good present for which I am very grateful to him .

I haven't installed the suspension yet, but I hope to be in good condition.

[Filip 124]

Why did you want B6s instead of Koni Sport? Lots of people seem to like the combination of Koni Sport shocks and Eibach Pro Kit springs.

[kunev 131]

Koni also don't sell front shock for TB anymore. I don't know since when, but I think than some years ago it was available in their catalog. But like I sad in the previous post there is variant from 3.0. I like more Bilstein monotube design (that technology is developed by them). It is simpler than twin tube and simple things are the most clever .

Bilstein Gas Pressure Technology

Bilstein Monotube vs Twin-Tube

The main disadvantage of Bilstein sport dampers is inability to adjust, but standard adjustment is good enough.

One very interesting article about sport shocks (with dyno plots ).

Finally I will say that I'm not Bilstein dealer and don't get money from them , I have not any experience with Bilstein, Koni or any other brand for sport suspension, I just like more the brand and what I have read about them more than other sport shocks .

[Paso 239]

I use Koni adjustable at front and Bilstein non-adjustable at rear. Very nice combination.

[Filip 124]

Did you consider getting 3.0 V6 hubs so that you get more shocks to choose from? Perhaps that would mess up your brake upgrade?

[Alfaduden 226]

Sure about koni not have FSD absorber available to TB?

[ALXege 75]

Hi Kunev!

Still haven't fitted your suspension yet? It's almost one year since I sent it to you..

[kunev 131]

@ Filip: I haven't consider such possibility, because I don't like such change to the car. And if I do it, I will have to make changes to brake setup. More options , unfortunately for every V6 GTV/Spider there is very little variants for front shocks . From what I have read the differences between front shocks for my car and GTV 3.0/3.2 is that on bigger V6 there is "bracket" on the body of shock for end link (I have write this earlier), so for my model these brackets will be unused.

Some times ago I write to FK to ask them for verification on one model FK Silverline X (they have 3 models for GTV, but don't say which one for which model it is ) and give them year and model of my car. I expect clear answer, but receive question for the size of bracket (down hookup of the shock) and swaybar mount on the shock

25mm - 35mm - 35mm+swaybar mount?

Very good answer for right question about their product . Explanation by me - in order of appearance : TS - V6 TB/3.0 12V - 3.0/3.2 24V. From what I know JTS model is different from above. I think it is TS shock with sway bar end links mounted on the shock's body.

@ Alfaduden: In the Koni's official site there is feature Koni finder . You will see that there is only rear shocks (STR.T and Sport models) for GTV TB. There isn't FSD option for any GTV.

@ ALXege: Hi Alex . Yes, I haven't yet. First It is related with other things, for which I will write in my next post and second my shocks are OK (but that is not real reason for not change ). We are neighbors, so some day can meet somewhere in Romania or Bulgaria . Keep me informed about events in your country . Thanks again for the calendar. Your calendar for this year is also great, very good work again .

[Alfaduden 226]

I noticed this after i bought my fk kit and it should fit on our cars without any hazzle.

http://shop.kw-suspensions.eu/index.php?page_id=product_single_view&sort=_&product_id=33563&mg=26&pg=160&page=1

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alfaduden 226]

This is a quote from GAZ on the british forum regarding my question if those kw coilovers fit my car...

"Spider & Gtv struts are identical. As said above the only difference is between the TS and V6. The TS has a 25mm spacing on the lower fitment attached to the hub, the V6 has a 35mm spacing. Also make sure, if your car has the ARB drop link fitting to the strut, that your new coilovers have this fitment also. Early cars, P1 i think, dont have this whereas the P2 '98 onwards cars do"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kunev 131]

And lets write something new here, after all the new season is opened  . 

I write in another topic about strange electrical problem caused by failed fuse and in another one for founded and changed shocks on boot lid. I have another "interesting" problem, but later for it.

I decide to change the garage where is worked on the car since I bought it.

After inspection on some points which I want to be checked was changed: both front wishbones, right rear wheel bearing and of course engine oil - Motul 300V Competition (which I mentioned earlier in the topic). I expect also some other items, but they were fine and don't need changing . 

And now for the "interesting" problem that haven't been solved yet. At the end of last year my speedometer start to not work constantly. For example if I go on extra urban journey it start to work after 30-40 km, but after starting of working state I have seen sometimes it starts to fall and then go to the correct speed position. My new mechanic told me that he have seen such scenario before and the reason was failed speedometer sensor. My car (and other old cars  ) have such sensor on the gearbox and more specific the differential. I remove the dashboard, but don't see broken or loose connection (I see some additional connections that are not original, but thats another story ), I reconnect two plugs, but no change. So speedometer sensor have to be found and then hopefully the speedometer will work constantly. So appreciate any working device in the car, nothing is certain  .

Edited June 1, 2013 by kunev

[vassilis 26]

kunev..i don't know the solution about this problem..but in sofia i know a very good service,the Extreme Service of Bobo.He must help you..i believe that he has a lot of knowledge about our cars.

[kunev 131]

I found part number of the speedometer sensor - 46412961. This sensor is used on many alfa models in the middle '90(from what I see all of the 155). I bought second hand sensor from working car which was disassembled for spares (or so told me the owner). He also send it to me (he was in another city) with "gear" mounted on the sensor.

When installing new sensor the mechanic told me that when was installed the Q2 something was not done properly. The old sensor have sign from metal part which have rubbed above one little hole and the metal part have to fit in to the hole. I don't have picture of the old sensor, but the hole can be see on the picture of the sensor on "shiny" middle part of the assembly (on old sensor was carved cone a little above that hole). And the plastic gear connected to the sensor is broken and in the gearbox. When he mounting new sensor everything was right, but then began to change between working and not working condition (the car was there for mounting of next part and when he move it he saw that the car began to not working some time. So the things go to removing the differential and see the condition of the plastic gear which is mounted on the differential and respectively order new gear and installing it. When installing Q2 on TB this gear is removed from old one and installed on new one. №2 on the following diagram.

So if someone make installation of Q2 on alfa romeo with gear on the differential for speedometer probably is good to order new gears - one on the differential and one on the sensor. Or if they are in good condition to remove very carefully gear on the differential and all installation to be made properly  (that is absolutely no funny to me when I write it  ).

Lets move on. Here is the next part, which I mention earlier in this post.

Depo Racing electrical boost meter 52mm diameter. When I order it I thought that I order this ->

, but actually I have ordered (or looks that way) and receive basic model ->

. It is without peak/hold, warning and changing color  . So the conclusion is read very carefully when you order something especially part number and if something is not absolutely clear ask questions! And do not trust completely on the photos on the ad! But that is in the past and it is already installed on the car. My mechanic wire it in such way when I switch low beam it starts and lights in white color. The gauge have two colors white (day mode) and red (night mode), but because in Bulgaria become mandatory to be driven on lights in the day and at night (of course) all year it was decided to be done on this way. I will show photos of it on the car later.

[kunev 131]

First about the speedometer and related gears. The last time I drove the car (~120km trip to drag racing event) the speedometer was working almost from the beginning , but maybe that was temporary state. Next week I will have longer journey to my home town (for rally event) and back, so then will see if it will work constantly and also will make some tests with the boost meter . 

I bought the above mentioned gear mounted on the differential.

So the differential will be removed and (probably) worn gear will be replaced with new one. And that have to solve the problem with speedometer, hopefully. I have one fear that recently installed gear with sensor (red piece on the picture with sensor in the previous post) can be damage by gear on the differential. The gear which I bought was in stock (for my and seller surprise), but other gear on the sensor is not available in stock  . So maybe will have to check on other dealers. Will be good the sensor and gear attached to it to be removed (without damage) and if it is in the condition before installation removing of the differential can be done, if not new one will have to be bought.

Next point is boost sensor. The vacuum for the sensor was get from pipe between plenum and bosch dump valve (like I wanted). But I saw that original pipes don't seal T-piece. The air can be hear with engine running and the pipes can be removed very easily. The solution was old original pipe (now two pipes) to be replaced with aftermarket vacuum pipe. On the bellow picture is the original pipe. You can see the cracks when mounting it to the T-piece.

I wanted fast solution and bought SFS performance vacuum pipe form nearest performance shop to me. As you can see from the next picture it was in the only one available color - blue (the pipes that comes with the gauge is transparent and go from T-piece to the pressure sensor). I bought it with internal diameter of 4 mm and original one looks the same. 

I'm not fan of colored pipes (blue,red and so on) so probably in the future will be ordered black Samco Sport pipes.

And here is the picture of the installed gauge on the dash.

I'm not fan of cutting and drilling of original equipment and because of that I decide to install it with the stand in the package and to stick it to the dash with 3M two side tapes (also in the package).

And the things that are not just right. First like you can see in the second picture of the gauge it don't show exact 0 when the car is off. Second is that at idle it shows only around -0.4 (thats on cold engine, on warm up it has to be a little more). For maximum boost I have test only on second gear with old original leaking pipe.

By my mechanic the stock bosch dump valve is broken and that will not be uncommon for so old diaphragm valve. So still to come tests of maximum boost and with installing of forge blow off.

Another very long post of me . Hopefully interesting for these of you which read it all and don't give up at some moment  .

P.S. I'm waiting for my turn at my friend who makes exhaust systems  .

 

 

[Filip 124]

I find your long posts really entertaining!

If I was to fit a boost gauge, I'd remove the analog clock so that there's an empty spot for it. Then rearrange the three gauges so that the boost gauge is furthest to the left, then water temp, then fuel level

Thoughts on this?

[charlee 314]

I'd like the boost gauge in the current clock position. Always wanted to do that. It's not hard to do really, you'd just need to have a custom dial face made to match the shape and design (not needed really, only if you you want things tidy).

 

But I think I'll be making a custom gauge pod in the A-pillar instead and keep the center clocks the way they are.. like they are not modified enough already   

[kunev 131]

In my opinion to position the boost gauge at center console is not appropriate. For me the boost gauges have to be somewhere in front of the driver view so it can easily look it when the car is in boost (fast driving). If the boost gauge is in clock gauge position it will be uncomfortably to view and distracting for the driver, especially in boost! That is my personal opinion. Even at my position I find myself distracted when the car is on boost and I look at the gauge and not the road. I think that boost gauge is needful for turbo car,especially if it is tuned. 

[Filip 124]

Yes, it's a problem that the gauge ends up very far from driver's field of view. This idea probably works better in a Ph2 interior with those three round air vents. They sit closer to windshield level.

I would block the vent to the left and somehow fit the gauge in there

Edited July 21, 2013 by Filip

[kunev 131]

And for the coming Q2 differential removal and installing new gear on the diff (if it is broken like I guess) I bought one of the best compatible transmission oil (I think that maybe the best) - Motul Gear 300.

Here is some info - spec. 

This oil is for transmission and differential without locking (clutch/plate type diff). For locking differential there is Motul Gear 300 LS".

When installing of Q2 and changing of transmission oil (not many km ago  ) I don't have a chance to select oil, but now the things will be the other way  .

So very soon - "Installing of Q2 - part 2", hopefully last one   .

Edited August 14, 2013 by kunev

[Thanos 193]

 

Next point is boost sensor. The vacuum for the sensor was get from pipe between plenum and bosch dump valve (like I wanted). But I saw that original pipes don't seal T-piece. The air can be hear with engine running and the pipes can be removed very easily. The solution was old original pipe (now two pipes) to be replaced with aftermarket vacuum pipe. On the bellow picture is the original pipe. You can see the cracks when mounting it to the T-piece.

20072013136.jpg

I wanted fast solution and bought SFS performance vacuum pipe form nearest performance shop to me. As you can see from the next picture it was in the only one available color - blue (the pipes that comes with the gauge is transparent and go from T-piece to the pressure sensor). I bought it with internal diameter of 4 mm and original one looks the same. 

20072013138.jpg

I'm not fan of colored pipes (blue,red and so on) so probably in the future will be ordered black Samco Sport pipes.

And here is the picture of the installed gauge on the dash.

20072013131.jpg20072013132.jpg

I'm not fan of cutting and drilling of original equipment and because of that I decide to install it with the stand in the package and to stick it to the dash with 3M two side tapes (also in the package).

And the things that are not just right. First like you can see in the second picture of the gauge it don't show exact 0 when the car is off. Second is that at idle it shows only around -0.4 (thats on cold engine, on warm up it has to be a little more). For maximum boost I have test only on second gear with old original leaking pipe.

By my mechanic the stock bosch dump valve is broken and that will not be uncommon for so old diaphragm valve. So still to come tests of maximum boost and with installing of forge blow off.

Another very long post of me . Hopefully interesting for these of you which read it all and don't give up at some moment  .

P.S. I'm waiting for my turn at my friend who makes exhaust systems  .

 

As I said in another topic I have to change some pipes,

is the 4mm diameter pipe the right one for the dump valve?

Do you know if the pipes of the Pierburg valve are also 4mm?

Chears